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kmisterk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Would you still recommend replacing the starter? The starter almost never has to run for more than 2 seconds for the engine to start.

If it always starts perfectly with literally only two seconds of cranking (as it should), your starter is probably OK, although it can't hurt to disassemble, clean and lube it when you have some spare time.

Cranking the starter for inappropriately long periods of time should simply run down the battery and NEVER melt the terminal(s), as anyone living in a cold climate with an old car can attest.

What misled me is where your battery post melted. Usually, the actual loose contact point is exactly where the arcing and melting will occur. I suspect your battery possibly had a flawed (cracked?) terminal. The type of meltdown you experienced is usually only caused by a solid direct short of the battery. The terminal is designed to melt under a solid short circuit, sort of a fusible link, rather than exploding the sides out of the battery.

When car batteries become solidly shorted (by the hood for instance) as in some collision situations, the actual terminals will melt before the battery explodes. I've seen that happen a few times, but never on a motorcycle.

gspd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:16 pm If it always starts perfectly with literally only two seconds of cranking (as it should), your starter is probably OK, although it can't hurt to disassemble, clean and lube it when you have some spare time.

Even on a cold start with the enricher enabled, under what I've come to experience with this bike as being "normal," I never have the starter motor running for more than 2 seconds to get the bike going. Unless, of course, I forget to toggle back on the petcocks, but then it kicks on right away after I rectify my own mistake there. When riding it consistently throughout any given time period, the motor usually kicks on after only one or two cranks of the engine.

gspd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:16 pm Cranking the starter for inappropriately long periods of time should simply run down the battery and NEVER melt the terminal(s), as anyone living in a cold climate with an old car can attest.

Yeah, I was particularly concerned with how it wasn't starting. With such a simple level of complexity, this should have been a warning to me to check other things before just blindly trying to continue to start the motor.

gspd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:16 pm What misled me is where your battery post melted. Usually, the actual loose contact point is exactly where the arcing and melting will occur. I suspect your battery possibly had a flawed (cracked?) terminal. The type of meltdown you experienced is usually only caused by a solid direct short of the battery. The terminal is designed to melt under a solid short circuit, sort of a fusible link, rather than exploding the sides out of the battery.

Yeah, my mechanic brother said he'd never seen the terminals melt off a battery like that before, and also mentioned it would need to be a short, specifically and not just a loose connection. But I guess, running high amperage for extended periods of time through poorly connected electrical connections can also generate quite a bit of heat. It even managed to melt a hole through the bottom of the under-seat toolbox.

gspd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:16 pm When car batteries become solidly shorted (by the hood for instance) as in some collision situations, the actual terminals will melt before the battery explodes. I've seen that happen a few times, but never on a motorcycle.

Whelp, at least you can now say you are aware of at least one motorcycle battery having a terminal melt off. bows not-so-gracefully

A new starter may well be unnecessary. The Bosch unit specified is perfectly man enough for the job if it's in good condition. If it hasn't been looked at for some time, though. I would recomend an that you service it. New bushes and brushes will often give an ageing starter a new lease of life at a fraction of the cost of a new replacement.

Rob

Rob Frankham wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:45 am A new starter may well be unnecessary. The Bosch unit specified is perfectly man enough for the job if it's in good condition. If it hasn't been looked at for some time, though. I would recomend an that you service it. New bushes and brushes will often give an ageing starter a new lease of life at a fraction of the cost of a new replacement.

Rob

Without opening up the front case I can only guess at whether or not this starter has ever been serviced or replaced. I can only imagine that it has been if it’s considered a standard or routine maintenance item. The original owner kept this bike maintained exceptionally well from the time he bought it new until about 4 years ago.

If the starter is working as it should, why change it. Don't like that "mod" though.

kmisterk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:53 am

Without opening up the front case I can only guess at whether or not this starter has ever been serviced or replaced. I can only imagine that it has been if it’s considered a standard or routine maintenance item. The original owner kept this bike maintained exceptionally well from the time he bought it new until about 4 years ago.

I would suggest that is an unwarranted assumption. Most bike owners seem to take the view that the starter (among other things) is a 'non serviceable' item to be used until it fails, then replaced. i.e. it'll work until it doesn't... This is a long way from the case, a starter can continue to start a bike that starts easily, even though it is only running at a fraction of it's efficiency. It's only when things don't go according to plan (i.e. the bike doesn't start immediately) that the reduction in efficiency becomes noticeable. Worn nose bushes can seriously reduce efficiency as can a dirty commutator and worn brushes. I my view, starter motors are among the most neglected parts of motorcycle (and car) systems which is a shame because they are actually very simple machines which aren't hard to service.

It'll also do your battery a favour. A starter that is running slowly draws a lot more current than one working at it's best, even for 'normal' starts and high current drain is what damages a battery most. reducing the current drawn by the starter and the amount of time it is being drawn will extend the life of the battery in proportion.

Rob

Rob Frankham wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:39 am Worn nose bushes can seriously reduce efficiency as can a dirty commutator and worn brushes. I my view, starter motors are among the most neglected parts of motorcycle (and car) systems ..........A starter that is running slowly draws a lot more current than one working at it's best, even for 'normal' starts and high current drain is what damages a battery most.
Rob

+1
My issue is the cost of completely refurbishing vs. simply replacing a starter.
The times they are a-changing.
Starters could cost as much as $400, which made repairing/rebuilding them a very viable option.
Now you can get a COMPLETELY BRAND NEW manufactured by Valeo (guaranteed for a year) starter for a measly $80 US.


Many starter 'issues' can be quelled with just a few strategically placed squirts of lubricant, some bushings and brushes, and an hour or two of your spare time, if you're so inclined...but that's only if it isn't burnt out or corroded to shit. Nowadays, no shop wants to take your cruudy 40 year old starter apart, inspect and lube everything, put it back together, make it look like new, AND give you a 1 year guarantee, for anywhere near that price (even if no parts need replacing).

I use one of these (Chinese-ium?) starters on my bike and have recommended them to many dozens of BMW customers without any issues for almost 2 decades. (They used to cost only $50.) I haven't done any specific 'torque tests' but they seem to have more 'kick' than the OE BMW starters. I can post the spec and individual live bench performance test sheet that comes with each one of these starters if anyone actually cares. I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with this supplier.
https://www.denparts.ca/starter-new-bmw ...

Zombie Master wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:12 am If the starter is working as it should, why change it. Don't like that "mod" though.

I’ve seen mixed opinions about this, and a major YouTube content creator (Boxer2Valve) actually recommends the mod for easy detaching of the battery for working on the bike.

Rob Frankham wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:39 am I would suggest that is an unwarranted assumption. Most bike owners seem to take the view that the starter (among other things) is a 'non serviceable' item to be used until it fails, then replaced.

I only hinted at this assumption because of how meticulous the original owner was about maintenance. Based on the stories I heard from the mechanic he used to do his work (only got to talk to this gentleman briefly), the original owner would ask specifically if there were maintenance items that should be handled pretty frequently. In 35 years of ownership and proper maintenance schedules, it seems unlikely that the starter motor would have been missed over that much time. But it is an assumption, as I have no proof.

Rob Frankham wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:39 am It'll also do your battery a favour. A starter that is running slowly draws a lot more current than one working at it's best, even for 'normal' starts and high current drain is what damages a battery most. reducing the current drawn by the starter and the amount of time it is being drawn will extend the life of the battery in proportion.

Rob

Definitely good things in general to keep in mind! Thanks for this bit. Based on how well the starter seemed to crank when the motor wasn’t starting due to bad/loose connections on the ground wire, I feel that the starter is not in a poor condition, as it was able to maintain the same crank speed for just about the entire duration of my initial 60-seconds of starting the bike.

gspd wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:39 am +1
My issue is the cost of completely refurbishing vs. simply replacing a starter.
The times they are a-changing.
Starters could cost as much as $400, which made repairing/rebuilding them a very viable option.
Now you can get a COMPLETELY BRAND NEW manufactured by Valeo (guaranteed for a year) starter for a measly $80 US.


Many starter 'issues' can be quelled with just a few strategically placed squirts of lubricant, some bushings and brushes, and an hour or two of your spare time, if you're so inclined...but that's only if it isn't burnt out or corroded to shit. Nowadays, no shop wants to take your cruudy 40 year old starter apart, inspect and lube everything, put it back together, make it look like new, AND give you a 1 year guarantee, for anywhere near that price (even if no parts need replacing).

I use one of these (Chinese-ium?) starters on my bike and have recommended them to many dozens of BMW customers without any issues for almost 2 decades. (They used to cost only $50.) I haven't done any specific 'torque tests' but they seem to have more 'kick' than the OE BMW starters. I can post the spec and individual live bench performance test sheet that comes with each one of these starters if anyone actually cares. I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with this supplier.
https://www.denparts.ca/starter-new-bmw ...

I am convinced that replacing the starter, if/when I feel it more necessary to do so, is going to be the better option in my case, and I will absolutely be hunting down one of the starters you’ve recommended, as since I have zero confirmed information about whether or not the starter has ever been serviced or replaced, it seems safer to just replace with a known solid platform.

Thanks for all the comments and tips, everyone!

Don't forget dielectric grease (Vaseline is good) for any and all electrical connections.

I liked "the mod".

In 35 years, I never replaced or serviced my starter motor, but I did go through a lot of batteries in the early days.

The only additional tip I have is to check your positive wire for corrosion under the insulation.
I noticed some falling out of mine once. I cut the insulation back a bit and it was all nasty inside.
A new cable made a lot of difference.

I would put a new ground cable on there, as well.

Rob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:04 am Don't forget dielectric grease (Vaseline is good) for any and all electrical connections.

I liked "the mod".

In 35 years, I never replaced or serviced my starter motor, but I did go through a lot of batteries in the early days.

The only additional tip I have is to check your positive wire for corrosion under the insulation.
I noticed some falling out of mine once. I cut the insulation back a bit and it was all nasty inside.
A new cable made a lot of difference.

I would put a new ground cable on there, as well.

I think replacement power cables are in my near future. >.>