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pat76r90 wrote:. ...From what the Major is saying, this bike is dangerous either way. Ain't love grand?

That's not how I read it and I'm not sure the Major was suggesting that.

When BMW introduced Snowflakes they made a point in the advertising literature that the rim profile was a step forward in terms of bead retention when compared to the previous spoked rims. It was positively designed to improve safety. They chose not to adopt a tubeless approach only because it was thought unsuitable for DIY tire changing.

My simple view has always been, when compared to a spoked rim, how can a wheel that is such a PITA to break the bead be so unsafe whether there is a tube fitted or not.

Didn't mean any disrespect to the Major, my attempt at wry humor. Not like you're not risking life and limb every time you ride, whether your front tire stays on or not.

pat76r90 wrote:Didn't mean any disrespect to the Major, my attempt at wry humor.

Absolutely none taken.

pat76r90 wrote:Not like you're not risking life and limb every time you ride, whether your front tire stays on or not.

And, that was the subtext of my post as well. I think you understood me perfectly.


Yeah, for me, the argument is clearly one of comparative risks, but while both risks clearly exist, it's very hard to fairly compare them. The sudden deflation from a puncture is a fairly well known risk, and the chances of a tubeless bead popping off on a non-tubeless style rim is pretty much a complete unknown, but much more catastrophic. So, it's really very hard to compare them in any quantitative way.

You mounts your tires and you takes your chances.

Vanzen was a definite proponent of running tubeless on snowflakes. We tangled about it, but I was really mostly playing devil's advocate because I'm quite ambivalent myself - I just didn't want him to get away with not acknowledging that there was a risk (enough of one for the factory to absolutely not allow dealers to mount tubeless tires on snowflakes).

And, just to be clear, I've never faced the choice myself: I've run spokes, Y-spokes, and three-spokes, but never snowflakes. If I did have to face the choice, I THINK I'd run tubes, but I'm really not certain. If I had a tubeless tire sitting in the garage, no tube sitting around, and needed to mount a new tire on the bike, I'm sure I'd go ahead and run it tubeless.

When I ran snowflakes, I ALWAYS opted for high-quality, name-brand (European) NATURAL rubber tubes.

I never had one tear from a puncture.

Maybe the decision depends on how good the accident investigators and how litigious the lawyers are in your jurisdiction IF you had an accident that might have been caused by a deflation when running tubeless on a snowflake.

Causing serious third party damage AND having your insurance company refuting the claim, could be crippling if you have any assets for the lawyers to chase after.

chasbmw wrote:Maybe the decision depends on how good the accident investigators and how litigious the lawyers are in your jurisdiction IF you had an accident that might have been caused by a deflation when running tubeless on a snowflake.

Causing serious third party damage AND having your insurance company refuting the claim, could be crippling if you have any assets for the lawyers to chase after.

It would seem to me that the burden of proof would require that the accident was caused by the tire's bead rolling off the rim; and not an effect of the accident.

Of course strange and stupid results often come out of the courtroom.

Ken

But having tyres fitted in such a way that contravened BMWs advice that the rims were not suited for tubeless, might enable your insurance co to avoid liability for accidents not related to tyres.

Just worth thinking about

Going tubeless on my Lesters. No issues, won't go back to tubes. You save about 2 lbs of unsprung weight per wheel.

mattcfish wrote:Going tubeless on my Lesters. No issues, won't go back to tubes. You save about 2 lbs of unsprung weight per wheel.

And there is no better place on the bike to save 2lbs because of the triple effect of the less unsprung weight, the bike weighing less and the wheels having less rotational inertia for faster acceleration and better braking.

chasbmw wrote:But having tyres fitted in such a way that contravened BMWs advice that the rims were not suited for tubeless, might enable your insurance co to avoid liability for accidents not related to tyres.

Just worth thinking about

Perhaps this is true with BMW rims, but Lesters were designed to run tubeless.
This article seems to put all the debate to rest.
https://m.facebook.com/Sunnbobb/posts/442715689158630
You probably would have some legal ground to stand on in this case.

Yes, they don't have the safety ridge. But they do not leak (especially if you bevel the edge of hole for the valve stem on the inside of the wheel). I used these stems http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0022Z ... ge_o01_s00.
If you have ever changed your own tires, you know how difficult it is to break the bead. If I do something on the bike that could cause the bead to brake while riding, a flat tire is probably the least of my worries.