Warning.. another OIL (additive) thread.

[Garnet]

Has anyone used, or have a comment on zinc oil additives such as http://www.lucasoil.ca/products/product ... Automotive
or
"Crane Cams Super Lube Break-In Concentrate (8 oz. bottle) is an anti-wear additive formulated with a high concentration of special zinc dithiophosphate to provide sustained protection against cam lobe and lifter scuffing and wear. This oil supplement is to be added to the engine oil for the initial break-in period after the installation of a new camshaft and lifters." (copied from Crane Cams website)

I have used the Lucas product for a year now to boost the zinc content of my fav dino 20/50.

[Kurt in S.A.]

My comment is to not try and play petroleum engineer by mixing additives in after the fact. IMO, it's far better to just buy a quality oil that is known to have adequate or acceptable quantities of ZDDP blended in at the factory. That will ensure that the two components actually do blend and are meant to work together. Anything else is just chemistry 101...which I didn't do too well in! But as they say, it is your engine and YMMV!!

Kurt in S.A.

[Major Softie]

I agree with Kurt (great Kurt's think alike). The additive package all works together, and changing the quantity of one ingredient can reduce the ability of another to do its job. For example, adding extra ZDDP might possibly decrease the ability of the anti-foaming agent to perform correctly, and so could actually reduce the performance of the lubricant.

The oil companies spend a lot of time trying to get the combined package to work just right, so I think it's wiser if you want better oil, to buy better oil - not try to make the oil you buy better.

Whether or not the additive is better for breaking in a new cam, I just don't know, but automotive oils have had such terrible reductions in zinc content that it might be much more important for a new automotive cam, especially in a machine designed for 5w-30, where in a motorcycle you can run a high quality oil designed for air-cooled motorcycles that has a lot more anti-wear ingredients than current automotive oils.

[George Ryals]

Why is it that so many people believe that zinc is the only lubricity agent that will protect an airhead's parts?

What is it that lubricates modern motorcycle engines but yet (without ZDDP) will not lubricate an airhead?

[Major Softie]

Why is it that so many people believe that zinc is the only lubricity agent that will protect an airhead's parts?
What is it that lubricates modern motorcycle engines but yet (without ZDDP) will not lubricate an airhead?

I believe I can clear this up for you.

First of all, its not just about zinc. ZDDP is an "anti-wear agent" - Zinc and phosphorous are the two most common anti-wear ingredients. ZDDP is a combination of the two. Their purpose it to protect metal parts in high pressure situations when the lubricant film fails. Camshaft to lifter contact is one of the places where this is more likely - ring to cylinder is another. In motorcycle engines that share motor oil with transmission oil, as many non-BMW's do, gear lubrication creates the same issues where gear teeth mesh. Motor oils have had these anti-wear ingredients for many years and manufacturers designed their products to function with them in the oil. Since autos started using catalytic converters, the EPA began restricting the anti-wear ingredients because, as tiny amounts are consumed in the cylinder, they screw up the catalytic converters. Modern auto engines have been redesigned to deal with these new lubricants, with things like roller-lifters to reduce the need for ingredients that protect from lubricant shear problems. Airhead engines were designed for lubricants which still contained these ingredients.

Air-cooled engines can have much higher oil temperatures in vital locations in the engine (note that oil temp gauges are giving you sort of the average temperature, not the hottest spots in the engine). Hotter oil has less viscosity and thus shears easier, so air-cooled engines are even more susceptible to those issues than older liquid cooled engines, even though both were designed for oils with ZDDP.

[so cal charlie]

IS 20-50 WT. VAL A GOOD WAY TO GO

[Garnet]

IS 20-50 WT. VAL A GOOD WAY TO GO

Try and find some specs for the oil. You are looking for a min. zinc content of 0.12% to protect the cam and lifters.

When I asked the zinc contenet question of my Conoco Philips lube tech, he said that if a flat tappet cam/lifters will last 100,000 miles with an oil of .120 zinc the cam would last about 60,000 miles with an oil that had .09% zinc.

In other words you won't ruin your engine with one oil change of a low zinc oil. Just don't use modern oil for the long term.

We where talking about water cooled automotive engines at the time.

[Deleted User 62]

IS 20-50 WT. VAL A GOOD WAY TO GO

Try and find some specs for the oil. You are looking for a min. zinc content of 0.12% to protect the cam and lifters.

When I asked the zinc contenet question of my Conoco Philips lube tech, he said that if a flat tappet cam/lifters will last 100,000 miles with an oil of .120 zinc the cam would last about 60,000 miles with an oil that had .09% zinc.

In other words you won't ruin your engine with one oil change of a low zinc oil. Just don't use modern oil for the long term.

We where talking about water cooled automotive engines at the time.

Valvoline makes a 20W-50 oil specifically for 4-stroke motorcycles. It has "JASO MA API SF/SG/SJ" on the label, I believe one of these indicates it's got the ZDDP for flat tappet engines. Can anyone confirm this?

[Kurt in S.A.]

I'd be suspicious about the label "JASO MA API SF/SG/SJ". You can't meet SG and SJ at the same time. After SG, the amount of ZDDP began to drop from what I recall.

Kurt in S.A.

[Garnet]

Valvoline makes a 20W-50 oil specifically for 4-stroke motorcycles. It has "JASO MA API SF/SG/SJ" on the label, I believe one of these indicates it's got the ZDDP for flat tappet engines. Can anyone confirm this?

The 76 brand 4T Motorcycle oil I used to sell went from a ZDDP content of 0.138% down to around 0.098% when they added "SJ" to the label evan though they still has "SG" on the label as well.

It is too bad it is so hard to find these specs. ConcoPhillips has allways been good about posting info to us but other companies, Shell for example, feel it unneccesary to do so.